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| − | This discussion is based on discussing two questions, and it is set to take place on the wiki, over the next few days (until midnight on Thursday, 25th July). Be sure to watch both videos: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrPNuOPflmQ Prof. Robert Ewy on growing willow], and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvwdGWt88s Prof. Ken Visser on small wind turbines]. Consider the question with two scenarios in mind - (a) where fracking has given the world a plentiful supply of $100/barrel oil (maintaining gasoline prices at around $4/gallon in the US) or (b) where use of fracking has been limited after an environmental disaster, and global oil demand has surged ahead of supply, so there is a price spike for gasoline and similar liquid fuels. | + | This discussion is based on discussing two questions, and it is set to take place on the wiki, over the next few days (until 11:59pm on Friday, 24th July, 2015). Be sure to read [[Chem321:Unit_7|unit 7]] and watch both videos: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrPNuOPflmQ Prof. Robert Ewy on growing willow], and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvwdGWt88s Prof. Ken Visser on small wind turbines]. Consider the question with two scenarios in mind - (a) where fracking has given the world a plentiful supply of $100/barrel oil (maintaining gasoline prices at around $3-4/gallon in the US) or (b) where there is a worldwide commitment to reduce fossil fuel usage, coupled with increased use of renewables (due to falling prices for solar and wind power, and cheap battery storage). |
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| − | We will leave comments on the page below, in response to (and under) the questions posted or the related responses. Be sure to start your text with a *, and sign your responses with four tilde marks at the end. You should post one original response to each question, and then post one followup comment on another student's posting. I will respond to each. | + | We will leave comments on the page below, in response to (and under) the questions posted or the related responses. Be sure to start your text with a *, and sign your responses with four tilde marks at the end. You should post one original response to each question, and then post one followup comment on another student's posting. I will also respond to each student's post. |
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| | ==Biofuels in the North Country== | | ==Biofuels in the North Country== |
| | What the the possibilities for biofuel production in the North Country? Could willow or something similar provide a major cash crop for local farmers with marginal land? (Post answers below here) | | What the the possibilities for biofuel production in the North Country? Could willow or something similar provide a major cash crop for local farmers with marginal land? (Post answers below here) |
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| − | *There are several possibilities for alternative and renewable energy development in St. Lawrence County. As we observed in the video by Dr. Ewy, willow is one particular alternative. Though it was also apparent that while some varieties of willow thrive, others are less adequate or prone to do well in colder climates or in marginal soil that has not been used exclusively or recently for agricultural development. Industrial hemp is another good alternative energy resource that easily proliferates in colder climates. It has been known to grow well even in Northern and Central Russia. Industrial hemp has been cultivated near the Northern Border of Agriculture (66° N, approx.): from Arkhangelsk the northern limit of hemp-cultivation was extended to Mezen, then reached Pechora River (Ust-Tsilma), to Tobolsk Province, Surgut (61° 17'N)(http://vir.nw.ru/hemp/hemp2.htm). Hemp is not only well suited to cold climates with low temperatures in Spring and short Summers, in fact farming just 6% of the continental U.S. acreage with biomass crops like industrial hemp would provide all of America's energy needs(http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml#one).[[User:Haw7thorne|Haw7thorne]] ([[User talk:Haw7thorne|talk]]) 17:18, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *Fuels obtained from plants are a very viable source of energy for the North Country. It is rich in areas that have the ability to produce agriculture. The only issue is that many plants can not survive through the harsh winters that we experience in the North Country. Willow however is an exceptional plant that is able to thrive even in the cold temperatures. These plants are able to grow on marginal lands that typically can't be used for much else. This will help with farmers who can't sacrifice growing other crops that typically sell well to grow the willow. They can plant the willow on unused land and it will still be able to grow well. It is also ideal because it requires little input of resources and upkeep. After cutting down for harvesting one season it will grow back again without needing to replant seeds. ([[User:Magenta|Magenta]] ([[User talk:Magenta|talk]]) 12:05, 25 July 2013 (EDT))
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| − | :*I definitely agree with you Magenta on the willows being a viable option for biofuel in the North Country. The fact that it requires very little up keep and as Dr. Ewy stated no pesticide use it seems to be a fantastic crop to bring farmers on board with biofuels and their benefits. Also the fact that it doesn't need to be planted year after year would be a benefit to the cost for a farmer, they wouldn't have to worry about paying for the seeds and labor of plants yearly. [[User:KatieLaVoie|KatieLaVoie]] ([[User talk:KatieLaVoie|talk]]) 21:20, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *If the growth of willow or plants of the like, is successful in northern NYS, then contributing biomass fuels to replace some of the natural gas fuels would certainly be helpful. Like in the video, this growth can be optimized. And if willow is as easy to grow as Dr. Ewy makes it seem - then it would not be too hard for farmers to plant and leave these plants on open patches of dirt for the sake of an extra penny. For this to be successful, the cost of raising and processing the plants would have to remain below the cost of removing natural gas from the ground through techniques such as hydraulic fracking. Considering the known dangers and downsides of fracking, such as the downstream effects of pumping chemicals into the ground (reaching drinking water) in ~half a million wells across the states - the successful growth of the biofuel industry would certainly be a welcome change. http://www.dangersoffracking.com/ [[User:Tom.fuchs|Tom.fuchs]] ([[User talk:Tom.fuchs|talk]]) 13:49, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | :*I am not a fan of fracking. To me it is not something that is appealing to me and doesn't need to be done right now. Tom, I promise this is a lot better than fracking and definitely more environmentally friendly. This biofuel has the opportunity to take off within a few years and it could generate a lot of money between the people of the North Country. Its basically something they can plant and not have to worry about it for a few years then sell as a cash crop. Do it again the next few years. Once it catches on it could provide a strong economy in the North Country. [[User:Slomasa192|Slomasa192]] ([[User talk:Slomasa192|talk]]) 00:14, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | * Biofuel is a new and innovative technology being introduced into the United States. Recently we have seen corn as a source of fuel, and even willow as Dr. Ewy's video shows. Unfortunately based upon the short growing period in the North Country, the window to grow biofuels is limited. Winters here are harsh and most crops die off once the temperature drops. The idea of growing biofuels is great for the North Country, because it would provide many jobs for the area, but I do not think it will be sustainable. If we are really trying to introduce this, then we should start with small farms of willow or corn (preferably corn, because of its fast growing ability), and see if the output is successful. If it does prove to be successful in production of biofuel, then the North Country would have cash crops all over, and in doing so, the local economy would flourish. As of right now though, I do not see there being a big effort put into the growth of biofuels in the area, and it will not be until the fossil fuels have been depleted and gasoline reaches an unbearable rate. [[User:Angela.M.Caracci|Angela.M.Caracci]] ([[User talk:Angela.M.Caracci|talk]]) 15:51, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | ::* Angela, I too do not think biofuels will be produced anytime soon in the North Country. For some reason they are always the last place to update on current times. The north country is also not a very wealthy part of New York so for someone to come up with the kind of money it takes to start a farm for biofuels would be very unlikely at this time. It would be nice to see something like that soon though! [[User:AbbyL|AbbyL]] ([[User talk:AbbyL|talk]]) 17:44, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | * Biofuel would be a great source of energy and income in the North Country. There are many many acres of land that could be used for production of bbiofuels. There are also many farmers that could benefit quite a bit by growing such plants. The downfall is though, that the North Country has the most unexpected climates in New York. Take the past couple days for example (July 24-25, 2013) it was 48 degrees in the middle of July in Franklin County NY. This would not be suitable for some plants. Also there is substantial rainfall in some seasons and extremlely early and late frosts that could cause many of the plants to not thrive. Like said above, bringing biofuel farms could result in a significant rise in employment. I have been doing a lot of research on biodiesel from used cooking oil to quench my curiosity on the subject and it is actually a pretty neat source of biofuel. Biodeisel of course can only be used in Diesel engines, but the process is not too extensive and the amount of used cooking oil from resturaunts is tremendous. Selling used cooking oil can benefit family run resturaunts in small towns of the north country. Biofuels could also benefit the North Country because of the several plants we have such as Alcoa, Bombardier,Moldrite, etc. These plants do a lot of shipping using large trucks that need copious amounts of fuel. Having biofuel farms close by could reduce the amount of fossil fuels used and possibly provide cheaper fuel in general because there wouldn't be the cost of having biofuels imported to the area from other locations. Using the biofuel would also reduce emissions and help to preserve the environment. [[User:AbbyL|AbbyL]] ([[User talk:AbbyL|talk]]) 17:38, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | Comment: Abby - I'm glad that you pursued this line of inquiry that you raised during our discussion last week. Its good to hear that your desk research was fruitful and you found that people DO in fact process used cooking oil so that it may be used as a source of fuel. I wonder how prevalent this sort of practice currently is. [[User:Tom.fuchs|Tom.fuchs]] ([[User talk:Tom.fuchs|talk]]) 01:06, 27 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *The North Country isn't often seen as a viable place for many biofuels, due to its harsh winters and poor economy, but I definitely feel that there are great possibilities for this area to flourish with the growing and production of biofuels. The video featuring Dr. Ewy and his willow plot is a great example of what can be grown in the North Country. Although he states that not all willow species are appropriate for this area there does seem to be a few that are viable. There are many benefits to "willow farming" coming to this rural area; more jobs and attention would be brought to the North Country which is usually looked at as a blank, poor, cold abyss. Also with the implementation of biofuels fuel costs could be cut tremendously not only for transporters but home owners. And given that willows are capable of growing on poor soil the threat of a depleting food supply due to lack of growing space is practically erased. Ethanol is usually produced from corn which is a crop that can't be grown in abundance in the North Country due to the weather and space. Given that fact you would think options for biofuel are limited for the area, but there are other ways of producing ethanol from sources that are found here in large quantities such as wood, grass, and even the willows mentioned above. These naturally occurring plants are turned in to cellulosic ethanol by drying the plant matter. There has been government grants in the past offering 20 million dollars in funding for the first plant capable of producing cellulosic ethanol on a somewhat large scale, this grant is something that the North Country is capable of receiving and could benefit greatly from it. The use of biofuel has its benefits for every part of our nation but especially the North Country, the long cold winters make for a large fuel use and heating bill. Biodiesel which can be made from wood and grass can be mixed with heating oil and used to heat homes making for a much more ecological and economical friendly winter. One of the biggest issues is getting people on board with the change to biofuels. Many farmers are hesitant to put their capital into something so new and also many customers are also hesitant to make the change. The North Country area must be educated on the quality of the product so that making a change wouldn't be such a shock. [[User:KatieLaVoie|KatieLaVoie]] ([[User talk:KatieLaVoie|talk]]) 20:58, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *It's highly possible that biofuels could be produced in the North Country. I had worked with Dr. Ewy last summer in the willow plot, my work was a little different (studying terrestrial insects in the willow plot) but I had learned a lot about willow and the promising future they have as a biofuel. I had worked on them when they were in their last summer before they were cut. A few varieties that had adequate water supply with marginal care had grown to be over 5 meters tall. While collecting insects I learned about the use of willows as a biofuel, especially in the North Country. Dr. Ewy taught me that willows could be grown, processed, and sold right here in the North Country and be a viable biofuel for families who used wood burning stoves. The willow could be grown in marginal farmland all across the North Country. Farmers could plant it as a cash crop on, grow it on a field of land that they have (it was preferred to be grown in cow pasture, there is evidence for nitrogen-fixation in willows), then cut it after a certain time. They sell it to a processor then who distributes it to local companies. All the money stays within the North Country and an economy could begin to flourish. It definitely made me think about how biofuels can become a sustainable resource for people not just in the North Country but anywhere where willow or any other crop could be grown on marginal land. The willow branches are the main part that you want, the leaves are useless for biofuel. Farmers only have to really cut it a minimum of 3 years, they could grow them for 5 but after they cut it they don't have to replant it, the root system would be rooted there. It's just kind of exciting after working on it to keep following the progress it is making. So the possibilites are endless for biofuel production and I could see these cash crops become far more popular all over the country not just the North Country. [[User:Slomasa192|Slomasa192]] ([[User talk:Slomasa192|talk]]) 23:34, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| | ==Small wind turbines in the North Country== | | ==Small wind turbines in the North Country== |
| | Suggest some suitable applications for small wind turbines in St. Lawrence County and nearby counties. (Post answers below here) | | Suggest some suitable applications for small wind turbines in St. Lawrence County and nearby counties. (Post answers below here) |
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| − | *I think that the most suitable usage for small wind turbines would likely include either private use or use by public entities such as colleges, universities, or publicly owned utilities in order to supplement local power supplies. However, private use would naturally only be viable if the individual(s) in question were able to afford the cost for purchasing and installing a small wind turbine, and its use even on a small scale would of course be limited. For instance, the small three blade turbine shown in the video and which is being tested by Clarkson University generated only 1kw per hour I believe. A smaller privately owned turbine like the one I am describing would be great however for powering a heat pump in order to heat say a small house.[[User:Haw7thorne|Haw7thorne]] ([[User talk:Haw7thorne|talk]]) 18:43, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *Small wind turbines seem to be a very viable source of energy for local St. Lawrence communities. This area has a very reliable source of wind since it is on the water and has lots of open fields. These turbines could be implemented into local farms as they showed on top of silos. Farmers would have to pay the initial cost but it would result in a lot of their energy costs being paid for in this way. There are so many farms in this area that this could really cut the costs of energy in the County. Also putting the turbines along the river in areas close to communities can supplement some of the energy to these areas as well. ([[User:Magenta|Magenta]] ([[User talk:Magenta|talk]]) 12:12, 25 July 2013 (EDT))
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| − | *I tried to do some math. I apologize if I'm wrong. The small wind turbines were reported to produce about 1 kilowatt. This suggests that it could yield 86,400KJ in a day. If the average home uses about 29 kilowatt hours in a day, then the average home would require ~104,000 kilojoules in a day. If my math is correct, which it likely isn't, then one of these wind-turbines could effectively provide the majority of the energy needs of a home on any given day, so long as the wind keeps up. With this in mind, then a wind-turbine could even help a home cover their needs. However, Professor Visser also suggested that the cost of one of these turbines and poles could be close to $5,000. This is not a small investment and is not necessarily feasible for the average home. Though the wind-turbine may pay for itself in the long-term, it is hard to imagine the average Joe investing in one of these small turbines. If the new small turbine designs are more efficient both in cost and energy production, then perhaps this sort of limitation could change. I'm sure though - the saving in EXTERNALITIES as worth keeping in mind. If only the government had infinite money and could subsidize the purchasing of these small wind turbines for small businesses and homes. [[User:Tom.fuchs|Tom.fuchs]] ([[User talk:Tom.fuchs|talk]]) 14:26, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | :*Tom when you break it down like that it is an investment that could pay off in the long run. In areas where they would get a good constant wind one of these could be placed in an area that would maximize the power. This power could help power a home or business. Its all circumstantial. [[User:Slomasa192|Slomasa192]] ([[User talk:Slomasa192|talk]]) 00:19, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *After looking into small wind turbines, I have learned that they can range from about 30 to 40 feet tall, and have the capacity to produce about 100 kilowatts of energy. These can be used in both private and public settings. For home settings, it takes about 10 kilowatts a day to meet the electrical needs (this is without the use of air conditioning during those hot summer months). Given that the North Country area produces a substantial amount of wind, these needs could be easily met. Currently there are some wind farms in Northern New York. I pass by one on my way to Plattsburgh. The Maple Ridge Farm's wind turbines supply enough energy to power about 90,000 homes. This benefits the people because it will lower property taxes, as well as, provide more revenue. Not only could they be used in private homes but also on farm lands and businesses as an adjunct to the usage of fossil fuels, in hopes to lessen the amount used.[[User:Angela.M.Caracci|Angela.M.Caracci]] ([[User talk:Angela.M.Caracci|talk]]) 16:00, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | :* Wow I never realized how much energy it takes to run just one home those numbers are very interesting! It's promising to see that even small wind turbines can produce enough to sustain a number of homes per day. I have also seen the wind farms on the road to Plattsburgh I never knew how productive they were though! ([[User:Magenta|Magenta]] ([[User talk:Magenta|talk]]) 20:38, 25 July 2013 (EDT))
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| − | * After watching the video I think the most suitable use for small wind turbines would be for private/person use. A small wind turbine could not be sufficient enough to power a farm or a plantation. I often categorize wind power and solar power together. Although I feel wind power is a little more reliable, especially in the North Country because how often it is windy or there is a breeze. Wind turbines would be ideal for home owners, but it can be very expensive to set a turbine up and install all the needs to gain the most power. I live in Franklin county and we have a lengthy wind farm. They are industrial size turbines that are owned by large corporations and sadly most of the power does not go to the residents of Franklin County. The turbines are set up on land own by farmers that get paid per year and have a tax write off. So wind turbines are quite suitable for farmers to gain a little extra income even though they do not get to take advantage of the power supplied by the turbines. [[User:AbbyL|AbbyL]] ([[User talk:AbbyL|talk]]) 19:14, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *I think there are quite a few of suitable applications for small wind turbines in St. Lawrence and the surrounding counties. There is often some sort of constant breeze sweeping over the area which can make wind turbines pretty productive. I'm not sure about the application of them on a large scale given that the turbines don't seem to give off an overly large amount of energy but they could definitely be implemented in the area. Farms and personal acreage could benefit from the openness and area to put the wind turbines. Also I think a valuable placement for small turbines could be on street lamps and buildings on the outskirts of various towns throughout the North Country counties. As long as they were fairly quiet and not too much of an eye soar they could really benefit in town energy needs. [[User:KatieLaVoie|KatieLaVoie]] ([[User talk:KatieLaVoie|talk]]) 21:13, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
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| − | *I am sort of indifferent about wind turbines in the St. Lawrence and surround counties. I can see them being used by people to power their home. If it is windy enough they could get a sufficient amount of power. If you are willing to invest the money and are confident that the reward is better than the risk then it can pay off. I think if the conditions are right then wind turbines could a suitable application for the Northern Counties. Farmers could sell some land and get a tax right off by having a wind turbine there. It is kind of reassuring to when I drive from Potsdam to Plattsburgh there is the long stretch of wine turbines. Now I know the power may not go to where it should, but it nice to see that the opportunity is being taken to use wind power as a sustainable source. [[User:Slomasa192|Slomasa192]] ([[User talk:Slomasa192|talk]]) 23:49, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
| + | [[Category:Chemistry 321]] |
