Chem321:Discussion 7

THE SUSTAINABLE WORLD (Chemistry 321)
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This discussion is based on discussing two questions, and it is set to take place on the wiki, over the next few days (until 11:59pm on Friday, 24th July, 2015). Be sure to read unit 7 and watch both videos: Prof. Robert Ewy on growing willow, and Prof. Ken Visser on small wind turbines. Consider the question with two scenarios in mind - (a) where fracking has given the world a plentiful supply of $100/barrel oil (maintaining gasoline prices at around $3-4/gallon in the US) or (b) where there is a worldwide commitment to reduce fossil fuel usage, coupled with increased use of renewables (due to falling prices for solar and wind power, and cheap battery storage).

We will leave comments on the page below, in response to (and under) the questions posted or the related responses. Be sure to start your text with a *, and sign your responses with four tilde marks at the end. You should post one original response to each question, and then post one followup comment on another student's posting. I will also respond to each student's post.

1. Biofuels or small wind turbines in the North Country

Watch both videos from unit 7: Prof. Robert Ewy on growing willow, and Prof. Ken Visser on small wind turbines. Consider the question with two scenarios in mind - (a) where fracking has given the world a plentiful supply of $100/barrel oil (maintaining gasoline prices at around $3-4/gallon in the US) or (b) where there is a worldwide commitment to reduce fossil fuel usage, coupled with increased use of renewables (due to falling prices for solar and wind power, and cheap battery storage).

Answer either one of the following questions:

EITHER

What the the possibilities for biofuel production in the North Country? Could willow or something similar provide a major cash crop for local farmers with marginal land?

OR

Suggest some suitable applications for small wind turbines in St. Lawrence County and nearby counties. (Post answers below here)

• I think that there are many different applications possible for small wind turbines for the different counties up north for sure. I think that since there is the worldwide commitment to reduce fossil fuel usage, and these renewable sources are becoming more affordable that this could be something big that could happen up here. I think that since the affordable prices these small wind turbines could be used all over for places from the bigger companies to be self sustaining to save on money, or even farms and households having a personal turbine in order to not have to pay for electricity, and if they make extra power they could even sell it to the power company and make some money. Rileytc197 (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2015 (EDT)

• You can see that Prof. Visser is aiming for the farmers, since he mentions the grain elevator they have there, which would be a perfect place to put a turbine. You're also right that locally produced electricity is likely to be more common in the future. Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I agree that the more affordable that turbines and solar become they more we can use them, and farmers and small households can be self-sustaining. This could in the long run help them save money and maybe eventually come off grid. The more locally produced energy the less need for fossil fuels in that area and if plenty of small towns do this we can greatly reduce our emissions on a larger scale. Ruizja196 (talk) 12:21, 25 July 2015 (EDT)

• There is a definite possibility that certain varieties of willow in the North Country could act as a means for biofuel production in the North Country. In the video, Professor Robert Ewy is using marginal land to plant different varieties of Willows and test how sustainable they are in the environment they are grown in. He has found one certain variety that is doing better than the others. It requires very little input, no herbicides or pesticides (which is great for the environment), they are resistant to any insect impact, and they are growing to a couple meters tall. Professor Ewy's study is 10 years long and they will be harvesting the willows after 3 years to test which one sustained and grew the best. From this study, many local farmers will be able to use marginal land that they own to grow willows as a major cash crop that will benefit biofuel production. Another study that I read about spoke about a study done on a farm in Illinois where they are growing both corn and willows. The willows (biofuel crops) are raised on the poor, marginal farmland that farmers would normally use fertilizer and pesticides on to make the soil better for the corn crops. This is the link to the article: http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/07/20/how-one-farm-growing-food-and-biofuels-while-reducing-pesticide-use Visserjr199 (talk) 18:02, 22 July 2015 (EDT)

• Thanks, that's an interesting article! Unlike more densely populated areas, this area has a lot of marginal land that is lying underused, and land is really cheap here, so I think you're right that it will be viable. Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I think this is a phenomenal way to utilize marginal land, create another source of income, and to produce biofuels that don't conflict with food production. I also think it is quite laudable that they are successfully growing these trees without the utilization of any pesticides or herbicides! Lastly, I think willows are a suitable choice, as they grow incredibly rapidly (my neighbours planted some type of willow less than a decade ago that is already roughly two times taller than our cherry tree that we planted around 10 years ago). Alexanderlevitz (talk) 23:44, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• Dr. Ewy is my advisor and I've had the pleasure to talk to him briefly about this sustainable form of biofuel, and one of my roommates worked in the willow fields with him and said they were a great idea for the North Country. I believe these willow fields could easily be sustained up here as they grow very well on marginal land, which is plentiful around these parts. This would not interrupt with any food markets as it is not taking things such as corn or cane sugar out of food production. They also are perennials and do not need to be replanted, this makes it convenient and efficient as crops can be harvested and they will grow back for the next season. Farmers can easily make money off these types of biofuels since the marginal land does not bring in income it would be advantageous to use those fields to grow willows. We could also clearly see in the video that these willows can grow up to a few meters high in the North Country, so I believed it would be very attainable and a sustainable way to transition away from our fossil fuel dependence. This would help our economy as well since it would be increasing farmers incomes, and we wouldn't need to depend on imported fuel which causes more harm to the environment as opposed to the cleaner and local source of biofuel. Rodrigaf197 (talk) 23:15, 22 July 2015 (EDT)

• I actually spoke with Dr. Ewy today, and he was telling me that the willows have now got really tall (I think he said 15 feet = 4.5 metres) after only three years. So, yes, they grow like weeds! He also explained that they are building up a strong root system that will help them come back more strongly after harvesting. Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• Small wind turbines as Dr. Visser stated are certainly less efficient than large wind turbines, and are roughly 30-35% efficient and 51-52% efficient respectively. However, this disparity in efficiencies does not negate the usefulness or practicability of small wind turbines. These small turbines still have the potential to generate significant quantities of energy, thus the North Country should definitely institute more large-scale and small-scale wind energy production operations. In terms of small wind turbines there are a plethora of adequate applications in the North Country, such as on farms. Farms clearly have substantial quantities of land, which can house small wind turbines. However, if every inch of fertile land is vital to the farmer it is might be possible to equip grain silos, barns, and farmhouses with enough small wind turbines to power the farm (and possibly enough to sell back to the grid, or to neighbors). Another possibility would be to utilize the wasted space on the rooftops of the universities of the North Country, which would help reduce energy costs and environmental impact. If possible every rooftop that has free space should be outfitted with small wind turbines, and homeowners that have land that they are willing to repurpose should adopt small wind turbines. Thus, there is clearly more than enough options in terms of the necessary space required for these turbines, however, the difficulty stems from the capital required to acquire these turbines. Alexanderlevitz (talk) 21:01, 22 July 2015 (EDT)

• I think having them provide local power to the farm, as you mention, could be the most valuable. One might imagine in a few years having electric-powered farm equipment and even tractors, and you just recharge them in the field, perhaps? When I talked with Dr. Visser, he mentioned that the wind speed really picks up a lot as you go higher, so a grain elevator will give you much more wind power from the top than my roof will - though even a house roof will give a significant amount in many areas. But Raymond Hall would definitely make a good location too! Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I completely agree even though the smaller turbines are less efficient they still are helpful, and make enough energy to at least help to cut down on their expenses. There defiantly are a lot of silos and roof space available around here for them thats a really smart idea to use these to put the turbines on in order to save on space.I would love to see some time in the near future small turbines popping up all over the north country ! Rileytc197 (talk) 19:34, 23 July 2015 (EDT)

• Willow could potentially be used as a crop for farmers in the North Country because they are fast growing, and wouldn’t need to be planted on land that they would plant other crops. Some do not require much maintenance, meaning no need to weed or apply pesticides. Farmers could in turn use the biofuel they get from this to sustain the farm without the need to use oil or natural gas. Also if a good amount of farmers in the North Country did plant this they could potentially reduce the amount of fossil fuels needed in their area, and it could become a cash crop after a few years. Ruizja196 (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2015 (EDT)

2. Microgrids and distributed energy generation

As mentioned in this reading from unit 7, cheaper solar and wind power is making it viable for homeowners to generate their own electricity. It was also announced recently that Canton had received a grant to examine building a microgrid for the town. Is this type of distributed power generation feasible in the North Country? If so, will it be connected to the wider grid, or will people go completely off-grid?

• I think that this type of distributed power generation would defiantly be a feasible thing in the North Country. I think that even though fracking has given the world a plentiful supply of $100/barrel oil up here in the north country this still results in high gas and oil priced due to our distance form ports and other big shipping areas. So this than leaves the people up here wide open to alternate kinds of energy that is affordable and accessible. people would no doubt jump in on this microgrid, also the people would be connected to the wider grid just so that if any extra energy is created this can than be sold back to the power companies.Rileytc197 (talk) 20:04, 21 July 2015 (EDT)

• Yes - an area like the North Country is quite spaced out, so as you suggest it lends itself nicely to decentralized electricity production, particularly in the more remote rural areas. Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:43, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I strongly believe that these microgrids are feasible in the North Country given that the necessary capital investments are not an issue. There is certainly enough land that could house these microgrids, and sufficient wind, sunlight, and biomass generation potential. As the article stated these microgrids will be capable of functioning independently from the main grid in the event of storms or other complications that result in power outages. Thus, most of these microgrids may begin as supplemental additions to the main grid; however, they could certainly reach the point where they no longer rely upon the main grid whatsoever (off the grid entirely). This will be more easily attained once these renewable technologies have been further developed, thereby reducing costs and increasing overall efficiencies. Overall, microgrids have the potential to be far superior to the main grid, as the main grid loses electricity when it travels through the power lines (dissipation due to resistance), thus microgrids reduce both the distance the electricity has to travel and the overall electricity lost therein. Alexanderlevitz (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2015 (EDT)

• Good point about the power losses! What you gain by scaling up the power production is lost if the electricity has to travel a long distance. Let's hope that Canton's microgrid turns into a reality! Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:43, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I did not think about that but it makes sense that the electricity they would be producing would not be travelling far. I agree that they could potentially go off grid when the technologies become more advanced. The main issue is storage of these renewable energies such as solar and wind. If we knew how to store the energy made they could certainly go off grid in no time. Ruizja196 (talk) 12:33, 25 July 2015 (EDT)

• I definitely believe that this type of sustainable micro-grid which runs on a multitude of renewable energy sources is feasible in the North Country. Foremost this micro-grid is more durable and can withstand harsh weather that we face year-round. I was 3 years old and had chicken pox during the ice storm of 1998 (I only live an hour from Saint-Laurence County), and we were without power for weeks. Knowing from experience, I think these microgrids would be a great idea for the North Country and could help out during storms and power outages. I like to believe people would like to go completely off the grid and find ways to sustainably harvest their energy such as these micro-grids will do. However it will take a lot of funding and good results during the test run for the technology to be implemented to have whole regions go off the grid. The fact that these technologies and devices are becoming cheaper and more accessible is a step towards a more sustainable future and this grant is great for Canton and the North Country. Rodrigaf197 (talk) 22:35, 22 July 2015 (EDT)

• I didn't think any of you would remember the ice storm of 1998! I didn't move here till 2001, but it was certainly a big thing - see this retrospective from NCPR. I lived in rural Vermont for a while and we regularly lost power, so I'm aware that the reliability of supply from local generation & a microgrid could be very valuable. You can see from that NCPR story how it's not just a case of losing your lights, etc., it's the danger of people in remote areas freezing to death with no heat in -30 degree weather. Martin A. Walker (talk) 00:43, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I can only remember brief parts of it since I was so young, but I know our wood stove, stockpile of firewood, and generator from our barn helped us quite a lot. I can't even imagine how others survived with less supplies, many people froze to death in Canada during the ice storm, and the article you posted makes me thankful I was only 3 when this occurred. Rodrigaf197 (talk) 12:59, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I am amazed that I did not hear about this treacherous ice storm, which honestly sounds like a The Day After Tomorrow (movie) scenario. I certainly believe that this ice storm (and the potential for other disastrous and devastating weather events) further supports the need to establish various microgrids throughout the North Country (and beyond!). Alexanderlevitz (talk) 23:54, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• The distributed power generation from solar and wind power is definitely feasible in the North Country. I think it is great that there are 83 communities that Gov. Andrew Cuomo has announced awards of $100,000 to support innovative microgrid projects. Especially reading about Canton, which is hit hard with storms that take out their electricity for weeks at a time. I also feel that there will be a time for people to transition from being "on the grid" to "getting off the grid." Just as we are slowly turning towards different resources to run our homes and vehicles, utility companies need the time to transition into finding ways to progress with the new trends in renewable resources. I have a few friends that work for utility companies and I'm sure they are hoping for ways to keep their jobs by transitioning into new roles in the future where they can work with new energy sources. Visserjr199 (talk) 05:54, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I agree with you, the transition to going off the grid will be at a slow pace as opposed to an abrupt change, and i think this is largely due to improvement in technology. This grant for microgrids is a great way to start transitioning over to sustainable off the grid energy sources. Also the advancement in technology gives us the opportunity to harvest more power from the sun and wind, and could create new jobs for those in the utility business. Rodrigaf197 (talk) 12:59, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

• I do think this is feasible in the North Country because we receive a lot of wind. If we created a microgrid based mostly on wind turbines but also on solar and other renewable resources, such as biofuel, we could potentially come off grid after a few years. We could collect and store the energy on high producing days and use what was stored on our electricity spiked days. I believe we should stay on the wider grid until we were able to self-sustain ourselves and after that occurs we could either come off the grid completely or stay on the grid to sell anything extra that we may have produced. Ruizja196 (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2015 (EDT)