Chem321:Discussion 10

THE SUSTAINABLE WORLD (Chemistry 321)
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This discussion is based on discussing two questions, and it is set to take place on the wiki, over the next few days (until midnight on Monday, 6th July). We will leave comments on the page below, in response to (and under) the questions posted or the related responses. Be sure to start your text with a *, and sign your responses with four tilde marks at the end.

Biofuels in the North Country

What the the possibilities for biofuel production in the North Country? Could these replace petroleum-based fuels locally? Could they become a major cash crop for local farmers?

Consider the question with two scenarios - (a) the status quo or (b) after global oil demand surged ahead of supply, and so there is a price spike for gasoline and similar liquid fuels.

• Based upon the very limited growing season in the North Country (approx. 60-70 days), I think the chance to grow biofuels is very limited. If we were to grow biofuels, corn would be a good option because it grows so quickly. Even if global oil demand sky-rocketed, I don't think the North Country would be the optimal region to start a massive biofuel attempt. If, however, there's a biofuel that can withstand freezes and thaws well, than the North Country could stand a chance of producing that biofuel. Since the North Country is also relatively poor, it would provide decent jobs and could help the region. If the market stays as is, I don't think there's a good market up here for it. HKopelson (talk) 11:18, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
• I believe that only scenario (b) would make bio-fuels economically viable for the North Country, by today's definition. With the severity of winter, and unpredictable nature of the rest of the seasons here in Potsdam, locally produced Bio-fuel would be relatively expensive compared to gasoline and other fossil fuels. Only when fossil fuel reserves are depleted to a point to cause a huge spike in the price will North Country produced bio-fuel be affordable and economicly viable as a substitute. We will see more benefit from other alternative fuels, such as wind and solar energy. Another possibility that could make bio-fuels economicly viable here in the north-country would be if the definition of "economic viability" were changed. Currently this term means that the price is cheap compared to other alternatives at the time, only taking into account normal costs and benefits. If environmental damage and longevity(normally externalities) were also included in prices, gasoline and other fossil fuels would become much more expensive than the bio-fuels created here in the north-country.Stewarjm192 (talk) 13:21, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
• I think that it would be very difficult for the biofuel production in the North Country. The winters are too severe that everything dies off- we get temperatures way to low to even consider this. Not only do temperatures get too low, but the drastic changes in temperatures also wouldn't be good for the biofuel industry. Our growing season is too short, from winter's freezing temperatures to falls frosts- it just wouldn't be possible. If there was a price spike for gasoline I think that farmers in the north country could rely on the windmills and solar power, although they may be expensive at first- solar and wind power will always be around so they will end up getting their money back- even in the winter months we have both of these. amannme192Amannme192 (talk) 13:33, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
• I don't think biofuel production would be easy to implement in the North Country. The winters are too long and the growing season is too short to allow farmers to grow the crops needed to make these biofuels. If and when the price of gasoline skyrockets, there are several options for the people who live in this region - buy electric or hybrid vehicles, use solar power and/or wind power (there are wind farms near Lowville and Chateaugay that would be useful in this scenario), or import biofuels from somewhere else. AndrewSears (talk) 20:41, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
• Biofuel production is a new innovative technology in the United States. I believe that biofuel needs to be more widely used throughout the U.S. before it will be introduced in the North Country. The North Country is a low-income region that is far away from highly populated areas. If the North Country was able to get funding or if they did have the money to invest in biofuel production I do think that it could become a gas crop for local farmers. Although, in the North Country many farmers sell their produce locally, so it would be a possibility that it would not be successful. I think that the North Country will most likely not generate biofuel production in the near future, unless there is a major change in the economy or supply that would force them to change. Balbiaka (talk) 22:19, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
• I think that the biofuel production in the North Country would have some benefit to our fuel supply, but it wouldn’t be a total replacement of petroleum-based fuels. It would end up being a fairly large cash crop, but the climate in the area would limit the amount that can be grown. At first it would be cheaper to use the biofuel, but with the limit to how long our growing season is, the price would probably increase. We would need to import biofuels if we were to primarily switch to it. However, if it were only in moderate demand allowing both fuels to be used, the North Country could benefit from it’s production. Another possibility is the rise of gas/electric cars. If those became more prominent in the area, less fuels would need to be used by each person, making it easier to make the biofuels a more principal source of our fuel.Racinea (talk) 22:40, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
• I don't think biofuel production would be a good idea for the North Country due to the long, cold winters, and short growing season. Overall, I do think biofuel production will replace petroleum-based fuels in our country. Trying a small, biofuel production project in a random town in the North Country could be a smart move just to see if it can work in this region. The North Country would benefit greatly if biofuel production was successful here because it create many jobs and bring much needed money to a region that is struggling. Corn would be the best in my opinion for biofuel production in this area. It could definitely become a major cash crop for local farmers, and bring economic prosperity to them and others in many others states. Oil is a finite resource, so biofuel production, through a slow transition, will probably replace it someday.Cronyy5180 (talk) 02:25, 31 July 2012 (EDT)

You're right that the climate works against us, and that applies to any agrobusiness in the area. Nevertheless, some plants do manage to thrive up here! We have a lot of marginal land available that isn't used for farming; it's unlikely that prime farmland will (or should!) be used for growing willow or switchgrass. Poverty may be a reason to do this - if it could be used to create productive employment. But if so, which plant sources would work best up in the North Country, if any?

• I'd say that corn might be a good crop- it grows quickly and there are enough GMO's/hybrids that might survive better up in the North Country. HKopelson (talk) 08:26, 31 July 2012 (EDT)

• Biofuels could possibly be viable in the North Country due to our vast amounts of farmable land and ample water supply, however we do have an extremely short growing season. It would also likely lead to deforestation and farmers turning away from growing other crops or raising beef. Supplies would be cut of 3/4 out of the year because of the growing season. A better alternative for the North Country would be to set up a infrastructure for electric vehicles and use the electricity from our hydroelectric power plants nearby. This may not be comepetative economically compared to fossil fuels in some areas (outside Massena). However, it could be possible if we were some how subsidized by the state and federal government for using clean energy sources. This would likely create many more jobs and make the North Country more self-sufficient in their energy needs.Maxwelk192 (talk) 11:11, 31 July 2012 (EDT)

• I think biofuel production is very possible in the North Country. Although keeping in mind elevated start up costs for renewable energy sources like biofuels could initially be problematic since the poverty rates in the North Country are quite high but there are many Universities around that could potentially receive grants to help start small scale projects in biofeul production and then work its way to implementing biofuel production/use to the community members. The Cornell Cooperative Extension in Canton often works closely with the local Sustainable Living Project,(both great organizations whom are very dedicated to creating a sustainable North Country) http://www.sustainablelivingproject.net/ which provides an ideal partnership between the research/development side of NC biofuels (test what feedstocks work and which ones don't)and the implementation of this into the community by the SLP which regularly conduct all kinds of workshops open to the public focused on teaching sustainable living solutions they even have clean energy conferences and green home tours. Local farmers could take advantage of producing (or recycling bio wastes) for feedstocks generating money locally is a viable way to combat poverty within the area. The North Country Public Radio just aired a story about a man named Pat Curran who owns Curran Renewable Energy in Massena and produces burnable wood pellets for energy but even with customers like Clarkson University and The Wild Center in Tupper Lake or even the $11 million dollars in start up support from the St. Lawrence County Industrial Development Agency he has had to scale back production because of low demand. It’s hard for him to find a sustainable level of production with low demand but high oil prices (peak oil) may draw more customers so this is a good example for scenario (a) however I feel that if he was to spread his name a little more and work together with different local organizations like CCE and SLP he could possibly raise demand. So for scenario (a) demand seems to be the main issue but could be changed. For scenario (b) I feel like a price spike in petroleum based fuels would be an excellent opportunity for biofuel production in the NC to flourish because even though our winters are long and very cold there is multiple options for biomass feedstock to produce. If you plan on using a plant based feedstock the key is to match the right species for the right climate and soil type it might take some trial and error but could become a nice cash crop for local farmers. Another story by NCPR from 2008 on renewable energy stated that pellet dealers couldn't even keep up with demand because oil and gas prices at that time were very high so a lot of it has to do with timing. The article also discussed the potential of switchgrass pellets grown right in the NC as a great means for biofuel because the plant is very durable for the harsh winters. According to the article a winter's heat from a pellet stove can cost half that of an oil furnace! http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/tags/biofuel Ashley (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2012 (EDT) Ashley (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2012 (EDT)

Ashley, thanks a lot for that information about the pellet mill and the NCPR link. I wasn't aware of that, though I know Phil Hopke at Clarkson is one of the world's leading scientists on wood pellets as biomass. I will try to add this into the course for next time. Thanks! Martin A. Walker 01:10, 11 August 2012 (EDT)